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	<title>Comments on: The Marketplace Appreciates Obfuscation in Pricing</title>
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	<link>http://www.darrenherman.com/2010/04/22/the-marketplace-appreciates-obfuscation-in-pricing/</link>
	<description>Marketing, Media, and Technology Conversations</description>
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		<title>By: Michael Katz</title>
		<link>http://www.darrenherman.com/2010/04/22/the-marketplace-appreciates-obfuscation-in-pricing/comment-page-1/#comment-97011</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Katz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Apr 2010 06:00:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darrenherman.com/?p=1174#comment-97011</guid>
		<description>I actually think this is really a gross over-simplification of a greater behavioral economics discussion that includes price elasticity and price discrimination but it is a good discussion nonetheless&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Bunch of people have been talking about the de-averaging of pricing for awhile now, thats all RTB really is... I agree that you have to ultimately de-average the value (not the price) of the impressions but I&#039;m not sure it benefits the buy side to de-average the actual cost. Specifically, it doesn&#039;t benefit people with technology to pay de-averaged prices as the cumulative cost for the set of desirable impressions may be more expensive than buying in bulk due to increased competition for that set of impressions along with irrational buying activity. Price discrimination will always benefit the seller, not the buyer so lets be careful what we wish for.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The notion that any unsold impression is &quot;remnant&quot; has allowed those with technology, data expertise, organizational alignment etc. to buy these under-utilized impressions at discounted bulk prices, transform them into something more desirable with greater value and resell them to someone else at higher rates. It is important however to distinguish the players who do add value from those who just arbitrage. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;When buyers start to compete for a set of desirable impressions we create upward pricing pressure on those impressions. We cannot discount irrational buyers who will drive up overall cost even further because even those with access to more complete information will not always act in a way that is obvious to the overall market because of its own motivations which are not public, its the practically of game theory discussion.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This does all point back to a post that you made a number of months ago about data valuation however, I wonder who in the industry is pretty good that stuff...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I actually think this is really a gross over-simplification of a greater behavioral economics discussion that includes price elasticity and price discrimination but it is a good discussion nonetheless</p>
<p>Bunch of people have been talking about the de-averaging of pricing for awhile now, thats all RTB really is&#8230; I agree that you have to ultimately de-average the value (not the price) of the impressions but I&#39;m not sure it benefits the buy side to de-average the actual cost. Specifically, it doesn&#39;t benefit people with technology to pay de-averaged prices as the cumulative cost for the set of desirable impressions may be more expensive than buying in bulk due to increased competition for that set of impressions along with irrational buying activity. Price discrimination will always benefit the seller, not the buyer so lets be careful what we wish for.</p>
<p>The notion that any unsold impression is &#8220;remnant&#8221; has allowed those with technology, data expertise, organizational alignment etc. to buy these under-utilized impressions at discounted bulk prices, transform them into something more desirable with greater value and resell them to someone else at higher rates. It is important however to distinguish the players who do add value from those who just arbitrage. </p>
<p>When buyers start to compete for a set of desirable impressions we create upward pricing pressure on those impressions. We cannot discount irrational buyers who will drive up overall cost even further because even those with access to more complete information will not always act in a way that is obvious to the overall market because of its own motivations which are not public, its the practically of game theory discussion.</p>
<p>This does all point back to a post that you made a number of months ago about data valuation however, I wonder who in the industry is pretty good that stuff&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: ericfranchi</title>
		<link>http://www.darrenherman.com/2010/04/22/the-marketplace-appreciates-obfuscation-in-pricing/comment-page-1/#comment-96991</link>
		<dc:creator>ericfranchi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Apr 2010 01:30:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darrenherman.com/?p=1174#comment-96991</guid>
		<description>We are seeing &#039;audience extension&#039; initiatives working well for the types of publishers you&#039;d imagine it would be good for.  We start seeing really good things if you can segment the pub&#039;s site, and then leverage the off-site messaging with sequential creative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are seeing &#39;audience extension&#39; initiatives working well for the types of publishers you&#39;d imagine it would be good for.  We start seeing really good things if you can segment the pub&#39;s site, and then leverage the off-site messaging with sequential creative.</p>
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		<title>By: jneumann</title>
		<link>http://www.darrenherman.com/2010/04/22/the-marketplace-appreciates-obfuscation-in-pricing/comment-page-1/#comment-96985</link>
		<dc:creator>jneumann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Apr 2010 19:13:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darrenherman.com/?p=1174#comment-96985</guid>
		<description>Magazine CPMs are determined in part by the cohesiveness of the magazine&#039;s demographic.  Magazines court this by having well-defined subject areas (i.e. American Iron) or by excluding readers by having a high cover price (ie. Hamptons Magazine.)  The same thing could be (is?) accomplished virtually by publishers,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Magazine CPMs are determined in part by the cohesiveness of the magazine&#39;s demographic.  Magazines court this by having well-defined subject areas (i.e. American Iron) or by excluding readers by having a high cover price (ie. Hamptons Magazine.)  The same thing could be (is?) accomplished virtually by publishers,</p>
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		<title>By: greghills</title>
		<link>http://www.darrenherman.com/2010/04/22/the-marketplace-appreciates-obfuscation-in-pricing/comment-page-1/#comment-96984</link>
		<dc:creator>greghills</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Apr 2010 19:07:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darrenherman.com/?p=1174#comment-96984</guid>
		<description>Makes sense. What is creating virtual demographic consolidation? Do you mean publishers should aggregate audience on the sell side, instead of leaving the buy side to aggregate audience through exchanges?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Makes sense. What is creating virtual demographic consolidation? Do you mean publishers should aggregate audience on the sell side, instead of leaving the buy side to aggregate audience through exchanges?</p>
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		<title>By: jneumann</title>
		<link>http://www.darrenherman.com/2010/04/22/the-marketplace-appreciates-obfuscation-in-pricing/comment-page-1/#comment-96983</link>
		<dc:creator>jneumann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Apr 2010 18:57:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darrenherman.com/?p=1174#comment-96983</guid>
		<description>Agree that knowing what the inventory is really worth (on both the buy and the sell-side) will completely change the landscape.  And I think that, at this point, knowing real value will benefit publishers even more than marketers.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If the old media started to: sell inventory based on its true value to marketers, create virtual demographic consolidation, use quantitative marketing techniques to serve up the right content to the right reader, etc., then they might be able to overcome their legacy cost base to return to viability (although not to the days when the Hearsts et al made a fortune by owning the printing presses.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agree that knowing what the inventory is really worth (on both the buy and the sell-side) will completely change the landscape.  And I think that, at this point, knowing real value will benefit publishers even more than marketers.</p>
<p>If the old media started to: sell inventory based on its true value to marketers, create virtual demographic consolidation, use quantitative marketing techniques to serve up the right content to the right reader, etc., then they might be able to overcome their legacy cost base to return to viability (although not to the days when the Hearsts et al made a fortune by owning the printing presses.)</p>
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		<title>By: dherman76</title>
		<link>http://www.darrenherman.com/2010/04/22/the-marketplace-appreciates-obfuscation-in-pricing/comment-page-1/#comment-96982</link>
		<dc:creator>dherman76</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Apr 2010 18:16:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darrenherman.com/?p=1174#comment-96982</guid>
		<description>If it&#039;s Shirley Temples, I&#039;m in.  If we&#039;re being conservative, I&#039;ll take a scotch.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;As for the evolving famous ESPN vs. AFF argument - there will be a value associated with advertising on each and depending on which one provides enough lift in associated metrics (placement, size of unit, time of day, day of week, audience, frequency, etc) for a particular brand and campaign.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If it&#39;s Shirley Temples, I&#39;m in.  If we&#39;re being conservative, I&#39;ll take a scotch.</p>
<p>As for the evolving famous ESPN vs. AFF argument &#8211; there will be a value associated with advertising on each and depending on which one provides enough lift in associated metrics (placement, size of unit, time of day, day of week, audience, frequency, etc) for a particular brand and campaign.</p>
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		<title>By: scotthoffman</title>
		<link>http://www.darrenherman.com/2010/04/22/the-marketplace-appreciates-obfuscation-in-pricing/comment-page-1/#comment-96981</link>
		<dc:creator>scotthoffman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Apr 2010 18:12:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darrenherman.com/?p=1174#comment-96981</guid>
		<description>Here is a hypothetical scenario - two sites - exact same size and audience composition and &quot;interaction rate&quot; - commodization theory places equal values on an impression/exposure on both sites - but what if one site is ESPN and the is Adult Friend Finder, are they still equal? That is an extreme example to say the least. You could look at it the same way using behavioral targeting cookie data, two exact people profiles - Maybe I am naive, You and I need to grab a drink together - so that you can teach me. I&#039;m buying!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is a hypothetical scenario &#8211; two sites &#8211; exact same size and audience composition and &#8220;interaction rate&#8221; &#8211; commodization theory places equal values on an impression/exposure on both sites &#8211; but what if one site is ESPN and the is Adult Friend Finder, are they still equal? That is an extreme example to say the least. You could look at it the same way using behavioral targeting cookie data, two exact people profiles &#8211; Maybe I am naive, You and I need to grab a drink together &#8211; so that you can teach me. I&#39;m buying!</p>
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		<title>By: dherman76</title>
		<link>http://www.darrenherman.com/2010/04/22/the-marketplace-appreciates-obfuscation-in-pricing/comment-page-1/#comment-96980</link>
		<dc:creator>dherman76</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Apr 2010 18:12:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darrenherman.com/?p=1174#comment-96980</guid>
		<description>What are you finding that is working/not working?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What are you finding that is working/not working?</p>
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		<title>By: dherman76</title>
		<link>http://www.darrenherman.com/2010/04/22/the-marketplace-appreciates-obfuscation-in-pricing/comment-page-1/#comment-96979</link>
		<dc:creator>dherman76</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Apr 2010 18:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darrenherman.com/?p=1174#comment-96979</guid>
		<description>The incremental shift even from taking unstructured pricing data for direct site buys to structured data will increase effectiveness and efficiencies by a %.  A couple of points here and a few there, they all start to add up.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;When you go into real time price observation and discovery, this is where hills start to look like mountains in terms of gains... if your system can enable + you can action it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The incremental shift even from taking unstructured pricing data for direct site buys to structured data will increase effectiveness and efficiencies by a %.  A couple of points here and a few there, they all start to add up.</p>
<p>When you go into real time price observation and discovery, this is where hills start to look like mountains in terms of gains&#8230; if your system can enable + you can action it.</p>
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		<title>By: greghills</title>
		<link>http://www.darrenherman.com/2010/04/22/the-marketplace-appreciates-obfuscation-in-pricing/comment-page-1/#comment-96977</link>
		<dc:creator>greghills</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Apr 2010 18:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.darrenherman.com/?p=1174#comment-96977</guid>
		<description>Nice post. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Exchanges have introduced a big shift in pricing information availability. With traditional direct buys, buyers and sellers only know the clearing price or market value of a transaction if they execute the contract. You only know the price of what you buy/sell yourself. Now with exchanges, you learn the clearing price even if you don&#039;t win the auction.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The market structure for direct buys allows media buyers, especially large consolidated media buying enetities, plenty of pricing info, but they don&#039;t use it because of organizational failures. Unfortunately, media buyers generally don&#039;t have good business intelligence systems. The existing pricing data isn&#039;t aggregated and made available to individual media buyers who are negotiating. The failure to leverage direct buy pricing data has less to do with market structure and more to do with transaction processing routines. When you cut paper IO&#039;s, the pricing data is locked up in unstructured data stores --- uniquely formatted Excel media plans and signed PDF IOs. The data might be available in a structured form in Atlas or DART, but these companies never added an attractive business intelligence layer on their adserving platforms.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The fact that exchange based buying is processed via API&#039;s rather than email and fax, allows pricing to be aggregated, analyzed and leveraged by buyers. IMHO, this more mundane shift in transaction processing will have a bigger impact on how data is used than the shift in market structure allowing non-transactors to discover pricing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice post. </p>
<p>Exchanges have introduced a big shift in pricing information availability. With traditional direct buys, buyers and sellers only know the clearing price or market value of a transaction if they execute the contract. You only know the price of what you buy/sell yourself. Now with exchanges, you learn the clearing price even if you don&#39;t win the auction.</p>
<p>The market structure for direct buys allows media buyers, especially large consolidated media buying enetities, plenty of pricing info, but they don&#39;t use it because of organizational failures. Unfortunately, media buyers generally don&#39;t have good business intelligence systems. The existing pricing data isn&#39;t aggregated and made available to individual media buyers who are negotiating. The failure to leverage direct buy pricing data has less to do with market structure and more to do with transaction processing routines. When you cut paper IO&#39;s, the pricing data is locked up in unstructured data stores &#8212; uniquely formatted Excel media plans and signed PDF IOs. The data might be available in a structured form in Atlas or DART, but these companies never added an attractive business intelligence layer on their adserving platforms.</p>
<p>The fact that exchange based buying is processed via API&#39;s rather than email and fax, allows pricing to be aggregated, analyzed and leveraged by buyers. IMHO, this more mundane shift in transaction processing will have a bigger impact on how data is used than the shift in market structure allowing non-transactors to discover pricing.</p>
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